this information is not official and is not supported by PWE[]
this content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game. it also is providing the methods of testing (copying multiples of the same character to the preview shard) and this misuse of the preview shard could result in the future removal or limitation of that ability.
- the terms of service (updated 3.21.2014) states the following:
| ARC Games Terms of Service |
|---|
14.2 Except as expressly permitted in these Terms or in the applicable EULA, such license does not include, and you agree not to engage in, any:
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drop rates aren't published data and they aren't required to publish this data. it is internal and proprietary. disclaimers or not, i would question the motives of the posting of this information here after it has already been removed from the official neverwinter forums. --User:Melodywhr
This information was not gathered using any of the means listed ,it was collected using the actual official test client of the official game , J0shi copied over actual in game items over to his test account multiple times manually , nothing illegal about that in any way whatsoever, nobody used data mining or robots and if you are trying to suggest that copying over several copies of various items over to test so they can be stacked is considered such behavior then I think we both know that this is the exact method that a large percentage of the test population used to get high level enchantments and massive ammounts of AD , are they considered to be using robots and data mining or cheating?
All J0shi has done is copy over large numbers of items and then published the statistical chances of each drop , nobody can prove the data is either wrong OR right except for the developers.
I believe that with a clear note at the top of the page that makes it clear this information is taken from the test shard then I don't see what the issue is , just because one single forum moderator takes issue why should the community be stripped of a valuable resource that shows drop rates that most of us know are very close to fact, at least here it can be controlled to a point ,if it is taken off here it'll just pop up on reddit or somewhere else where nobody can change it except the person who posted it. --User:Songeurique
Interpreting the PWE ToS this way seems indeed hyperbole as I can guarantee that no third party programs have been used to perform the tests. The information given is not _false_, it is true for the build and conditions that the tests were performed under. I've maxed out the tools this wiki has to make sure users are properly informed what the test can provide.
This information is displeasing, but if players are indeed discouraged, as it was stated on another page here, then because the drop rates seem to be bad, not because the drop rates of a certain build on the preview shard were approximated. The actual drop rates remain internal and proprietary, the given information does not conflict with that fact. Ironically, the immaturity shown by a PWE forum moderator around here might hurt PWE more than the information provided with the RNG tests.
Furthermore, I'm not sure the PWE EULA/ToS/RoC (should) apply here, censorship would severely hurt the spirit of a Wiki project, which is made from the community for the community. But that has to be determined on a higher level and I will of course respect any decision of the Curse stuff on the matter. --User:J0shi
i assure you this isn't based on a single community moderator's opinion, this view is supported by PWE staff. the content was removed from the forums after discussions involving a majority of the community moderators as well as the community manager.
my role as a contributor to the ongoing success of neverwinter, this wiki and the community is the driving force here. the bottom line is this content is not supported by PWE and it is only an attempt to expose unpublished, proprietary information and its purpose is to discourage players. the information can not be verified and therefore it should not exist on the official wiki. --User:Melodywhr
This data is not intended to discourage players at all , if data like this was published that listed the % chance of items being dropped from Cash shop items then your argument about trying to discourage players may hold water but saying that players knowing the statistical chances of free drops from events that are taking place during time they would be playing anyway is trying to discourage them is a very weak argument . I would argue that far from trying to discourage players this is trying to inform players , if Cryptic really does have a big issue with these tests then why don't they just remove all lockboxes from the test client ?
All I see here is a community volunteer who has taken issue with a particular subject , removed the offending posts from the forum and is now on some kind of crusade to censor information that many of us feel the community has a right to see , and yes we have a right to see this information since nothing that goes against the games ToS was used to gather the information , if this information isn't pertinent to the drop rates on the live server then I fail to see why the article needs to be deleted if it is made clear that the drop rates listed are for the test server only. --User:Songeurique
if the data was provable, then there wouldn't be any issue with making it available. however it is not as PWE will never publish drop rates and RNG formulas. therefore it is only anecdotal evidence of box opening on a test build. if a new user follows links to this content while looking for specific game info, this could be very confusing and discouraging especially if they miss the disclaimer, do not understand the existence of the preview shard and that what is offered is only a snapshot of anecdotal data.
i'm also going to again state that it isn't one community volunteer that has an issue with this "testing". it isn't the practice of the neverwinter community moderation team to act as "lone wolves". we are in constant communication and often discuss the current topics and issues going on within the community. if this information was necessary to actually play the game, i wouldn't have any issue with it at all but i and the community team question the motives behind offering data that cannot be officially proven. --User:Melodywhr
Everything on a Wiki is unreliable information, because the contributions are written by users. That's why the disclaimer states that content has not necessarily been reviewed by official sources and the validity and quality of the information cannot be guaranteed. So in a way, you could challenge everything written here with the very same argument. This stuff is made up because RNG Tests are unwanted for reasons I don't (have to) understand, which tells me the tests might actually offer more truth than PWE wants to admit. The campaign to discredit these tests actually adds to their significance. Anecdotal data is presented on the official chat and forums every day (although from the live shard admittedly) and is not deleted ([1] [2]). Why is it so precarious that a user actually gathers these things?
Of course users could be misguided by articles on a Wiki for obvious reasons, but that again applies to everything written here. Several boss tactics on this Wiki are absurdly wrong or outdated, so users following the tips could very well get frustrated. Why doesn't PWE take offense at those discouraging articles? You obviously apply double standards to remove unwanted content. Deleting stuff form the official board is one thing, censoring a Wiki is a whole other animal. And Songeurique is actually right that the information is and will be available anyway. Just one example: Dig up google and you'll find cached versions of the RNG Tests on the wiki and even the original thread in the official forum.
The repetitive reasoning that the data cannot be verified is also shaky. Everybody can go out and perform such tests, add their expertise to the page and evaluate whether their results confirm or contradict what has been posted before. --User:J0shi
most people listen to music because it's enjoyable. they don't have to understand music theory or have production knowledge. some people may be curious about what inspired a certain song, but none of that is required to enjoy music. alternately, i don't have to know what my odds are to buy a lottery ticket. and millions of people do it for that microscopic chance of being a winner. there's a reason why game companies don't provide drop rate numbers or RNG percentages. it's part of the enjoyment of the game to get that awesome drop you've been wanting/needing.
as for the wiki disclaimer about information being potentially incorrect, well, that goes without saying. this is a wiki for an ever-changing MMO. and it's hardly complete. without the people that do contribute to it on a regular basis, it would be but a barren void. however, my interpretation of that doesn't really include the posting of theoretical drop rates acquired from a test build that will never be verified. incorrect information posted here can be corrected by anyone although the intended purpose of this site is in support of the game. the controversy of your data doesn't fit into that scope.
while i am not going to get into neverwinter forum moderation, i can tell you the difference between your links to the forum and this information is that those are known to be anecdotal results from the live shard. your presentation of your "testing" is presented as accurate or near accurate results to the point that you had at one time made the statement that it would take over a year or two years to acquire enough coal wards to make a perfect weapon/armor enhancement. in my opinion, your intent in making that statement is to discourage. and therefore your drive to push this information on the official wiki is to discourage and convince players that due to low drop rates, the game is not worth playing. and why this is problematic is you will never have the proof to prove this information. and again, i question your motives of providing it. --User:Melodywhr
Funny you mention the lottery because over-estimating the odds of winning is a common misperception that can contribute to addiction. I am subject to this error myself quite often as I probably have spend more ZEN opening lockboxes in search of the epic mount and companion than it would have cost to just buy them off the AH. But who cares, you're right. It's part of the excitement. You are very much mistaken if you think I want to discourage players to play the game with the information I provide. I play the game for several hours per day if I'm able to, so from a logical standpoint: Why would I want to drive other players out and rob myself of potential teammates?
Other MMOs handle drop chances very open-minded by the way (1 2), because it's a great amusement for the community to theory-craft about different assets of the game. And why do we do it? Because we want to be effective and make the most of our playing time. We discuss builds, powers, parse combat logs, post strategies, videos and share everything on the Wiki, Forum or other places. All information that's gathered while playing the game is used to enhance the gaming experience and as long as I could I shared my personal experience on the forum in multiple ways to serve the community. The RNG Tests were and are no exception. I don't do them to determine whether Neverwinter is worth playing or not, I use them to determine whether it's better to farm an event or do the usual VT/CN runs. Do I get most out of lockboxes in opening or selling them? How many boxes do I need to farm on average to get a specific transmute? It helps people getting better in the game and make smart decisions.--User:J0shi
i can already see a huge difference between the comparison with guild wars 2 drop rate research and the page in question. accumulated data from multiple users over time on the live server with very large and noticeably marked disclaimers at the top of the data pages denote that the information provided is based on experimental research conducted by the community and should be taken with a grain of salt vs data provided from one user taking advantage of the ability to copy the same character multiple times over onto the preview shard to acquire multiples of the same item and suggesting this data is as close to actual drop rates on the live shard regardless of the not-so-obvious disclaimers.
while theorycrafting is an interest to hardcore players neverwinter is comprised of all kinds of play styles. there are obviously number-crunchers within the game that focus on making the most out of their play-ability or game play in general. there are also players that would rather test their builds and play the game. there is a major difference between theorycrafting with an understanding that theory is theory and theorycrafting with arrogance. as game changes will force contributors of this wiki to be constantly making changes to it, it will also force theorycrafters to go back to the drawing board. part of the issue with interweaving these theories throughout the neverwinter wiki is it forces other people who aren't interested in number crunching or theorycrafting to see it while searching for other data. with constant listed and unlisted game changes, being able to keep data current across multiple pages would be a nightmare to sustain. i wouldn't be surprised if in the near future that changes are made to the preview shard to limit character copy. if and when that happens, there will be no other way except using accumulated data over time as a way to theorize about drop rates.
it is my belief that neverwinter is comprised of mostly casual players and that the implementation of this "test data" is not a requirement of most players. it would introduce theorycrafting to this wiki as to my knowledge, there aren't builds here or any pages that discuss theorycrafting in depth. what mostly exists here is game information, not the theorizing of in-game mechanics. if drop rate theory was allowed to be provided here, it would need to be clearly marked as experimental research, noted that the information is not reliable and the research data would be required to come from the live shard and part of a live build. based on that, this page in its current state relies too much on data from a test build that was acquired using the copy character feature--not being used as intended--and shouldn't be included as a part of this wiki. --User:Melodywhr
There are differences about the methods used, but that's nitpicking because how you've handled the topic so far tells me you want to prohibit any discussion about it altogether and other companies allow these kind of things in their official or semi-official sources. I'm absolutely not opposed to an extended disclaimer, experimental research label or whatever. Would you allow a GW2 approach, where data posted from various users of the live shard is compiled?
Sustain accuracy through game changes is a challenge a Wiki (and even a forum) has to cope with anyway. On some pages content is being marked as outdated (1) and nobody cared to add more information. I agree that theorycrafting is better handled in a forum where outdated threads just disappear (though still accessible through the search), but you missed your chance to allow and control it there. Sadly there has never been a constructive exchange about the topic (which partly is my fault as well) so I don't think you're remotely interested but just want to swing the hammer. You could have contacted me through the Talk pages here and discuss the topic in a mature way, but you chose to add redundant information (a Disclaimer above the Disclaimer) and then started to move/delete the topic.
On arrogance: Yes, there have been times where I didn't treat the data with caution, but that has changed over time and I never presented the information on this Wiki without a proper warning. "Not-so-obvious" is as always hyperbole from your side: The very first chapter of the article reads "Disclaimer". I'd say it couldn't be more obvious especially since I've added the preview-tag as well. --User:J0shi
- I have spent some very tedious time wading through this ridiculous edit-war mess. When this page was created, I, as a player, thought it was somewhat interesting, albeit of limited reliability, like everything drawn from the preview server (including pages that I myself have created like the Thayan Book of the Dead), and more generally like every page on the wiki. The wiki's content is simply players doing their best to document the game without help from the devs.
- From reading between the lines, I suspect that the section on the Coffer of Wondrous Augmentation is the crux of the issue, because of its association with stupid arguments about the Zen store. A compromise might be to chop that section out.
- For now, I'm going to leave the page locked, leaving everyone unhappy, until things cool off. --Two30 (talk) 17:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
- the official stance from PWE on this issue is as follows: as long as the information is provided in a neutral way, then it is okay.
- i propose that the page is prefaced with a disclaimer that indicates the unreliability of the data so there is no question for those that come across this page that the data herein is experimental. i also propose that the posting of the method of copying a single character multiple times to the preview shard be removed as this could be construed as the sharing of an exploit. at minimum, this is not the purpose of the preview shard or the ability to copy a character multiple times. i also don't think it's necessary to put links to this RNG test page on the reference pages of live shard items OR to place this experimental data on the reference pages of live shard items. i propose that speculative comments of actual drop rates be removed as well as discouraging comments such as "the data suggests this item will drop twice a year". although above all else, i would much rather see this preview shard testing be scrapped for accumulative testing from the live shard, such as the example given from GW2's wiki as long as it is provided in a neutral way.
- admins, you may contact Sominator via PM at the official forums to verify my statement. --User:Melodywhr
- Well, that's progress I guess. Thanks for discussing it internally and allowing the community to perform and share such things. I already agreed to all sorts of disclaimers and am also not opposed to simply share the raw information without adding any interpretive comments. That said, it seems you want an isolated page that can only be found by someone knowing what he/she is searching for and I don't like that. At least linking from the tested items should be allowed with proper disclaimers or we introduce a new frontpage category with preview-related topics where this and similar things can be found.
- I certainly hope accumulative testing can replace this at some point in the future as well, we'll see.
- Also I still would like to hear from Curse on their official stance on PWE censoring the Wiki. This has to be settled beyond this particular issue as it should help user to decide if they want to contribute in this environment. --User:J0shi
- I contacted Sominator, who told me they have a new person at PWE/Cryptic with responsibility for the wiki relationship. This person will contact either me or Curse. --Two30 (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
as i mentioned early on in this discussion, the intent of the preview shard is not for hypothetical RNG testing. when they changed the character copy format on the arcgames.com website, they have added the following information:
- Some things to note:
- Copying a character to the PTS will not affect your character on the Live Shard in any way.
- Certain account features (such as buying and spending ZEN, promo items, special unlocks, etc) may not be available on a Public Test Shard.
- Requesting a character copy will fail if the character already exists on the PTS.
- Requesting a character copy will fail if the character already exists on the Public Test Shard.
- Requesting a character copy to the Public Test Shard is the only way to get characters to the shard!
- You will be unable to transfer your character to a Public Test Shard from the Live Shard if you are logged in on that character on the Live Shard at the time the transfer is requested.
- You can create new characters on a Public Test Shard if you would like to start fresh.
- Note: we will be adding level-up and item-granting NPC’s in the future. For now, please test as best you can on your existing characters by utilizing the Character Copy feature!
- whether you can or cannot currently copy your character multiple times on the preview shard is irrelevant as it is clearly listed on the website that it is not intended to work that way.
- i will bring this up again with the community managers to nudge whoever is responsible for the wiki relationship to contact you. --User:Melodywhr 3.21.2014 3.25am PST